@ Doc you never know what’s in side. Many cheaper mic will be used as “donor mics” .
But the rode nt 1 is too expensive to use as donor.
Not all artists wanted the most expensive mics.

The flip side of inexpensive gear not holding its value is that you can buy it for really cheap, used, and likely sell it for a similar price if you later decide you don't want it.

I've gotten some very good deals on good gear at pawn shops. I've collected a 4th-gen NT1, a Blue Bluebird, an AKG P420, and a Sterling ST51 for under $300 for all four of them. Add to that a pair of Line Audio CM4s (bought new), and a used SM57 & SM58... and I could consider myself pretty well miked up for under one thousand dollars.

I'm not saying that it's not ever worth it to buy considerably more expensive mics, if you have the cash, or that $3500 is necessarily too much for a U87Ai.

I'm only saying that it doesn't seem really necessary, for people for whom the cash is a real issue. You can make entirely professional-sounding recordings with inexpensive gear, and nobody will ever know if you didn't use a real Neumann, unless you tell them.

IMO your recordings will not sound harsh or lacking in detail, unless maybe you drive the mic circuit too hard and it doesn't saturate as nicely as some more expensive mic you like.

That's one of the limitations of the comparisons on Audio Test Kitchen... they apparently don't record things close & loud enough to give much saturation. That would raise terrible logistical problems of how you would use different mics differently and compare them fairly... everything seems to be recorded reasonably clean, for basic consistency.

OG NT1 circuits though were designed by Jim Williams though
So upgrading the capsule with a Tim Campbell was popular back in the day.

Nowadays you can consider Mic Parts and Beesneez too.
Chris

Driving a mic circuit? What in god's name are you talking about? The mic is the first thing in a chain you can't 'drive' it only amplify it downstream.

You post incessantly all over these threads making the same points as if it's your life's mission to get people to buy the cheapest gear. I'm not saying you need to spend over 1K for a good vocal mic or over $500 for a nice SDC but the people that can least afford to waste their money buying dirt cheap, sub standard gear, are those without a lot of money. The board would be better off as a resource if you and your comrades posted (a lot) less.

That probably true - "people that can least afford to waste their money buying dirt cheap, substandard gear, are those without a lot of money"

If so, Doc's doing God's work, helping better inform those in need of cogent, most cost-effective direction.

Tbh, I almost feel the opposite.

I probably own 20+ mics worth ~$100ish that I never use anymore, but selling them feels like a chore. By the time reverb/ebay takes their cut and I pay for shipping and a box, I spent two hours taking pics and listing it plus packing and shipping, to net like $50.

I could clear more money selling locally on marketplace or Craigslist, but then I have to deal with meetups, tire-kickers, scammers, etc.

Maybe it’s just my ADHD brain, but I feel like stuff worth less than $100 I would rather just donate than try to sell.

OTOH, something like a vintage U87 I can turn into cash with the same amount of effort, and I can often make a profit on, if I’m willing to wait and field different offers. Which is worth it, if if means making an extra $300 on the sale, but not if it means making an extra $10.

Most won't but some will, like me, for example, and I'm sure others on this thread. Like I said, no one is making you care, and I appreciate that you speak from personal experience, but please don't assume that others are as non discerning or as dispassionate about sound as you.

Do you even understand that condenser mic has a little amplifier in it, called the "head amp" or "the mic circuit"?

Apparently not.

The head amp generally provides little or no voltage gain, but acts as "current buffer," which amplifies the power output of the capsule, considerably.

It is a pre-preamp amp.

That is what phantom power is for... to provide power to that little current amplifier, so that it can provide enough power to drive a mic cable (maybe a long one) and the microphone input on a preamp.

That is necessary because a condenser capsule puts out a reasonable voltage swing (usually less than line level but not by a lot, and sometimes actually more) but can put out almost no current at all at those voltages.

The condenser transducer only converts a tiny bit of actual power from the motions of the diaphragm (due to air motions) into electrical power, so the head amp is needed to increase the current and power enough to drive a microphone cable and a mic preamp.

That little onboard amp is what people are referring to when they talk about a "solid state mic" (such as a "Class A FET" mic), or a "tube mic" or (rarely) an "opamp mic."

It can be important to how the mic sounds. For example, it is difficult to overdrive most condenser mic capsules---they can handle pretty high sound pressure levels---but it's usually easier to overdrive the head amp. For example, if you close mic a snare drum with a condenser mic, it's likely to clip in a not-pretty way. That can also happen with a simple plosive in a vocal, especially if you don't use a pop screen.

That is one reason why most close drum mics are dynamic mics, not condensers. (They too can be overdriven, mechanically rather than electrically, but not as easily, and in a way people tend to like.)

Short of outright clipping, what a lot of people want out of a condenser mic is for the head amp to saturate and provide mild harmonic distortion.

You can drive a mic's head amp hard by playing/singing a loud sound into the mic, without a pad, or not enough of a pad, or the wrong kind of pad.

Some mics, like the MXL 770, have a pad that just attenuates the output of the head amp, rather than attenuating its input from the capsule. That means that even with the pad switched on, you can still overdrive the head amp just as easily.

Similarly, if you use an inline attenuator after the mic, that may keep the mic from overdriving the preamp you're feeding it to, but it won't keep the head amp from distorting.

That's a weird take.

I've come to appreciate Doc's posts, and nothing indicates he's dispassionate or non-discerning about sound. He comes from a technical background and of the nerd world, which belies his understanding of the nuances of both music and the production aspects of it. It would indicate he at least cares about sound.

I don't disagree with your core thesis that it is possible to make good records with cheap gear in current year, but I think the framing that "nobody will ever know if you didn't use a real Neumann" is misleading, and also beside the point.

Obviously, approximately 0% of music-listeners have the ability to recognize what vocal mic was used on a recording, just from listening, even if a handful of us obsessive slutz can tell, just listening to the radio.

But nobody is using a "real Neumann" because they are worried that the audience will care what brand of mic they used. People gravitate towards certain mics because they like the way they sound. In my experience, a lot of singers who usually dislike hearing the recorded sound of their voice, feel like a vintage Neumann makes their voice sound in their headphones, the way it sounds in their head.

My goal in selecting a vocal mic is not to please the listener, but to please the singer, to get the best performance. Because the performance is what is going to break hearts or make people cry, not the mic.

I agree that it is possible to make a hit record with cheap gear, in current year. I disagree that whether the listener knows the mic was a Neumann was ever what selecting classic vocal mics was about.

Relatively speaking, we all do, of course, but some more than others, as evidenced by his own words in relation to mine. There is a wide range of discernment and care about Nth degree sound quality, even among those with a lot of experience. And that's ok. And just because I'm super picky doesn't make me better than anyone else. Just make me a bit weird. ;-) Perhaps in that respect, it is a weird take.

He's just a cut price person in low budget land!

Cheap is small and not too steep
But best of all cheap is cheap
Circumstance has forced my hand
To be a cut price person in a low budget land
Times are hard but we'll all survive
I just got to learn to economize
I'm on a low budget
I'm on a low budget
I'm not cheap, you understand
I'm just a cut price person in a low budget land
Excuse my shoes they don't quite fit
They're a special offer and they hurt me a bit
Even my trousers are giving me pain
They were reduced in a sale so I shouldn't complain
They squeeze me so tight so I can't take no more
They're size 28 but I take 34
I'm on a low budget
What did you say
I'm on a low budget
I thought you said that
I'm on a low budget
I'm a cut price person in a low budget land
I'm shopping at Woolworth and low discount stores
I'm dropping my standards so that I can buy more
Low budget sure keeps me on my toes
I count every penny and I watch where it goes
We're all on our uppers we're all going skint
I used to smoke cigars but now I suck polo mints
I'm on a low budget
What did you say
Yea I'm on a low budget
I thought you said that
I'm on a low budget
I'm a cut price person in a low budget land
I'm on a low budget
Low budget
Low budget
Art takes time, time is money
Money's scarce and that ain't funny
Millionaires are things of the past
We're in a low budget film where nothing can last
Money's rare there's none to be found
So don't think I'm tight if I don't buy a round
I'm on a low budget
What did you say
Yes, I'm on a low budget
I thought you said that
I'm on a low budget
I'm a cut price person in a low budget land
I'm on a low budget
Say it again
Low budget
One more time
Low budget

When your mics are Shid.

Your mind is filled with shid.

Also your ears filled with shid.

WTF is shid? A shed filled with shit?

Plushy babe, you can use shit to your scatological delight...

Bye bye!

I am ok with those, it's the Craig's List serial killers that i find so annoying

Fair point!

Besides the mics I name-dropped before as good cheap buys, I have a number of other cheap mics I regret buying, like an MXL 990 and 770, and they're hardly worth the hassle of selling them. I'd intended to mod those and improve them (mostly for nerdy fun) before I found out about the AKG Perceptions, which just don't need any modding (if you are happy using a little EQ) or just an easy one-capacitor change for a more Neumann-like FR curve in the hardware.

(That kinda took the wind out of my sails for modifying mics... I was mostly in it for nerd fun, but not if it's totally useless and I'd be better off just buying something else. And when I found out I needed to rewire the pad circuitry of the 770 for it to be useful preventing the circuit from distorting, I said F it. It wouldn't actually be difficult for me, now that I understand the issue, but F it. It's not a hack I'm going to recommend to anyone else, like the capacitor mod for Perceptions is, so it's not worth messing with.)

The Perceptions and the 4th gen NT1 are the mics I don't expect to get rid of, even if I buy a real U87Ai. I'm not going to buy a stereo pair of U87Ais, but I have a similar-sounding pair of Perception 200s that I got both of for less than $100. And the NT1 is just a good mic that's different. Not everything sounds best through a K67/K87-type center-terminated capsule.

And that raises a question of how somebody should spend a few thousand dollars, if they do have it, but only a few thousand. Is it best to spend it all on one excellent $3500 mic, or several cheaper mics that are different from each other, and maybe better suited to different sources?

Is it more important for somebody on a low budget to have one excellent mic, and spend all their mic money on that, or a variety of good ones?

From my listening tests, I'd say the latter. Partly because I do sometimes record more than one thing a time, but even doing one thing at a time my voice doesn't work the same on every song, and my acoustic guitars don't sound the same, and I record in different rooms.

Your mileage will probably vary, I know, but my philosophy is that if I spend a few hundred dollars on a few good mics, that's probably not wasted money even if I later buy a great mic costing 10 times as much or more and come to love it.

Having a stereo pair of Perceptions and a stereo pair of Line Audio CM4s---which a lot of experienced pros say are very good mics, and not just good mics "for the money"---seems like a pretty reasonable investment.

Even if some day I can justify spending thousands on a pair of Schoeps or Neumann SDCs, too, having a second pair of pretty darned good SDCs and a pair of LDCs won't hurt, either for recording a second simultaneous stereo signal (like piano and drum overheads, or overheads and stereo room), or just because the "better" mics aren't always the best on a particular source, in a particular space. (For example, my impression is that SDCs are usually better for stereo miking because they have more consistent off-axis pickup over an extra octave of treble, but sometimes the narrower HF pickup of an LDC works best in a given situation. Either can be great, and they're usefully different.)

I mean, I suspect that there are very few people who have exactly $3,500 as their "now and foreseeable future" mic budget. But assuming that's the scenario, I think it depends entirely on the person's goals.

If you are looking to be a rap/pop producer with a writing room and to book vocal artists to come in and work with you, then you should buy a U87, because it's a great mic, and because people recognize the name, and because having a bunch of "alternate" mics is kind of pointless, if you are only ever recording one singer in a vocal booth. Alternately, buy a used U87 and a couple of SM57s or something, if you want to occasionally record instruments or something, as well.

If you are looking to kit out a home studio or a project studio with the ability to track a live band, then my advice would be to look for:

- an AKG 414 B-ULS for under $800 as a primary vocal mic,

- a pair of OLD MXLV67Gs (pre MXL logo, with the heavy construction and duller gold headbasket), maybe $200 (these mics have been through multiple revisions, and the current ones are not remotely the same as the ones that Harvey Gerst raved about).

- Eight SM57s ($800 used)

That's about $1800. Do we still need stands and cables? If not, I would go for a pair of AT small-diaphragm condensers and a pair of affordable ribbon mics (I have no idea which ones are the best, but they all tend to sound pretty good). And then an AKG D112 for kick drum.

That's actually a pretty well-equipped mic locker for a project studio. If I made a record with those mics and it wasn't a hit, it wouldn't be because the mics weren't up to the task (of course, I would much prefer to work with a bigger and more-expensive mic locker, but I could make that collection work, with decent preamps and so on).

Here? In the anonymous bully-pulpit of the Internet? Good luck with that.

I don't think you can find a good condition BULS for under $800. There's one on Reverb now for a little over $800 but the rear switches are worn down.
Most of them are going for around the price of a brand new XLS/XLII. You can get a used XLS/XLII for under $800 though.

Personally, I would go with a used 414 TLII. It's got quite a nice capsule.

Microphones come in three main styles: ribbon, condenser, and moving coil.

Microphones are used to capture music.

Make music and have fun!

Have a spiffy day you guys!

Who the FCK hacked Gravy?

Huh, I did not realize they were going that high.

When you could get a B-ULS for $500~600, I thought they were, by far, the best deal in LDCs.

They might still be the classiest-sounding mic for under $1k, but that's a really crowded price-range these days and I just don't know enough to say it's better than all the mid-priced copies and knockoffs and boutique stuff.

I will say that, for me personally, any C-414 later than the B-ULS is not an especially appealing mic, in that price range. To my ear, once the 414 went transformerless, it became a fairly boring mic, albeit certainly a competent one. But you can get a lot of boring, competent LDCs for cheap, these days.

The B-ULS, to my ear, was the last one that had that big, velvety, authoritative "expensive mic" quality, with smoooooth highs that you can crank for days. On my own voice, I actually prefer a BULS to a vintage U87. I don't feel that way about any of the transformerless 414s, and maybe that personal connection affects my impressions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some microphones require phantom power to run. Always check before hand!

Later gator!

In the mic locker of the studio I'm working out of right now, they mislabeled one of their 414s as a BULS when it turns out to be the 414 TL, which is a transformerless BULS and came out right before the TLII. I never heard one before. It's pretty rare. I plugged it up into a nice GML pre amp and it sounded really good and I can see why classical people like it.

I think the TLII is an excellent mic. It gets such a bad rap. It's not as special as a brass capsule, but I think the TLII capsule is fantastic. I got one in one of my EBs and I'm loving it. I also got a regular TLII and they both do a great job measuring up to the brass capsule EBs.

And I love that you can get 9 polar patterns out of the latest 414s, and I greatly prefer the digital switches, but "unappealing" is a great word for how they sound. They're not bad, they're just not special sounding.
Same here. I always sound like I have a bit of a stuffed nose on an 87. I do see why Neumann thought the 89 was an improvement over the 87. I like the K89 mics.